Why I stopped creating PHP projects with Wappler and why you probably should too

[Mr.Rubi]

@JonL

@Mr.Rubi I was meaning to reply to you but I got dragged into a spiral of fear of change

Hi @JonL! I am grateful to you and I really appreciate your help. I have read the proposed solutions, but if I understand their essence correctly, they will not be able to help in my task, unlike CapRover.

If I understand correctly, Qovery and Porter are targeting cloud hosting like AWS, DO, Heroku. And cloud hosting is not suitable for me. I don’t like any solution that only works with a predefined set of hosting solutions. The reason for this is that my customers dictate to me exactly where the project should be placed. This may be an unknown hosting company of absolutely insignificant size, but my customer has been drinking beer with the owner of this hosting company every day for 10 years. Or it can be the customer’s own servers. In other words, with all my desire, I do not have the opportunity to look only in the direction of cloud providers. I need to be able to simply and quickly place the project anywhere.

CapRover on the contrary solves this problem. It can turn any machine into a convenient hosting service, where you can host any projects.

It remains only to figure out how to most conveniently host Wappler applications using CapRover. I’m having a hitch with exactly that at the moment.

P. S. By The Way. For everyone who reads this thread. CapRover is a tool that makes life easier not only for nodejs developers. This is a piece that makes it easier to host and manage applications created on any technology stack. These can be your PHP or ASP projects. Or even stacks that are not supported by Wappler, such as Python or Ruby projects. Therefore, it can be extremely useful to absolutely all of you, even those who now do not understand how CapRover can be useful to him.

[JonL]

Indeed. Caprover will suit better your needs then. I haven’t got my hands dirty with it but I am planning on doing it very soon as I am testing Oracle always free cloud plan.

I am planning on deploying to Oracle free plan a meilisearch instance to power one of my app’s search engine.

[TomD]

@JonL

but others(newer generations) would be attracted also, don’t you think?

Perhaps they would, but would they necessarily be deterred by the PHP option too? They might have ‘legacy’ sites to maintain, using PHP. However, as I said, I think it would be premature. I imagine there is a gradual exodus from Dreamweaver to Wappler, apart from the huge number of PHP developers generally. That would probably largely stop.

@JonL

What I don’t think is sustainable is them supporting 5 different backends(asp classic, asp.net, php, nodejs and go)

I agree about asp classic (but I don’t use it). ‘Go’? Perhaps you know something I don’t. Another factor which I expect would be relevant is Dreamweaver. I have no idea about the relative proportion of users of DMX’s DW extensions to Wappler users, but it might be signficant. Maintaining all this must be a lot of work, but presumably the PHP extension for DW and Wappler are more or less developed in parallel. To pull the plug on their DW users might not be a good option. I expect Adobe might pull the plug on DW first.

[JonL]

@TomD

Perhaps they would, but would they necessarily be deterred by the PHP option too?

There seems to be a correlation between the decay of PHP in popularity, the rise of JS and the median age of the developers. You can check the data in stackoverflow’s annual surveys.

[Mozzi]

To agree to disagree…

… to the point that hosting that supports Node JS is to expensive… yes sure if you have “bigger” clients footing the bill for bigger projects… but in my case i have loads of small clients that uses shared hosting… its really cost effective and no need for expensive hosting… im sure there are lots of Wapplerians here that have many smaller projects on shared hosting…

Just here in South Africa you can get hosting for R 70 - R 100 per month… shared hosting with all the php you want…
Then the JUMP from there is VPS or Dedicated hosting… then you start looking at R 1500 and up…

So in the end you have 2 Wapplerians here…
Hard Core Nodjs guys with serious big scalable projects with clients without a budget limit…
And then the normal entrepreneurial Wapplerian… that works for himself or a small team that runs tons of smaller projects…

SO for now there will always be a place for PHP here … or i would hope so…

And I would love to know the ratio of PHP vs NODEJS users here on Wappler…

[Hyperbytes]

Did a bit of a survey of node a while back here

Node and Docker Survey

The forum seems to be pretty much dominated by posts and reports related to Node and Docker technologies I am intrigued to know if this is because everyone is using node and/or docker or if this is due to the level of issues being experienced as they are relatively new technologies added to Wappler so I thought I would start this survey Which platform is your primary platform for web app development i.e. the platform you currently use most poll Do you use Docker as your Primary method of web…

Only 47 people voted which leads me to think that the majprity of Wappler users either don’t use the forum much, are not interested or perhaps too confused/ intimidated to interact.

My current new project is Node, previously mostly PHP, did use legacy ASP for many years.
If i recall ASP was replaced by .net framework about 20 years ago but people still use it.

PHP is still a force to be reckoned with. for many reasons not least it drives WordPress which is dominant on the web at present.
PHP keeps evolving, getting faster and feature rich, I am not yet ready to write it off as soon to be dead. I predict we will still see it as a major player in 10 years personally.

Yes, node is great but PHP is a proven platform. Remember the old adage, “nobody ever got fired for buying IBM”, may not be the best but is is proven and dependable.

I am not yet ready to write off PHP.

[sitestreet]

I’m with you on this, @Hyperbytes. I’ve been using PHP for over 20 years and it is way too established to write it off. And with v8 out recently, it’s clearly not approaching end of life.

NodeJS may have been around for 10+ years but, in my view, is still relatively new and I don’t (yet) have the confidence it will be around for a long time to come. It just feels like it’s the latest thing and there will soon be something else. I never got on board Ruby but that feels like it’s past it.

I will say, though, that I’m certainly no expert on these. Knowledgable of PHP but barely touched anything else (apart from ASP in the nineties).

I’m seeing NodeJS getting the spotlight at Wappler so I’m keen to transition to it but I need to build something and deploy it to gain the confidence needed to actually use it for real. That will come, I’m sure, but I’m not quite there yet.

[JonL]

It might seem this is a direct attack Jon, but it’s not. I am just quoting you because a lot of people pushing nodejs back have a similar background as you.

@sitestreet

I’ve been using PHP for over 20 years

And that is a problem. Shared by a lot of Wappler’s from what I see.

That is what is holding back the product IMHO.

What I don’t understand from the backgrounds of PHP advocates here is that after so many years of coding in PHP they don’t feel comfortable switching to another one.

In 20 years I’ve touched a dozen of programming languages. Sure I am not an specialist in any of them, but I’ve got my fundamentals quite right to be able to comfortably learn a new one and become a specialist in 1-2 years at the most. And I’m not even talking about Wappler which actually negates the need of learning the language for about 90% of the things by abstracting all that with their UI and SC framework.

Additionally a lot of people are scared of nodejs while they use javascript constantly in the frontend. It is the same damn language!

I see a lot of contradiction in this topic and I can only conclude it’s a mix of fear and laziness.

On the other side, and this should embarras a lot of us @ben is jumping on every single new tech he can get his hands on: PWA, nodejs, etc

Guys, please quit holding back Wappler. There is so much potential in the software and the team but they clearly need some help from us so they can focus on newer and better tech so they can continue relevant in the business and grow while staying agile and so close to the community.

Next project: choose nodejs.

[sitestreet]

@JonL

Next project: choose nodejs.

OK, I will do that. It means some monthly costs (shared hosting works perfectly for PHP-based projects but not NodeJS) but I will get another droplet from DO and go with NodeJS for the next project.

But you’ll be the one to get the daft questions from me, @JonL

[JonL]

And I will be glad to answer them to the best of my knowledge!

Edit: a $5/monthly DO droplet will give you more juice to power more nodejs sites than the same amount of money spent on a traditional shared host. That’s a guarantee.

[datguru]

Also wondering if there is an opportunity here for a shared node hosting to bring about a new era of shared hosting :).

[NewMedia]

I’ve worked in PHP since 2003.
PHP & MySQL dynamic sites, many used image galleries.
Transferring a website’s php pages & mysql database to a completely different hosting server was simple!
I’ve put PHP projects on hosting all over the USA, Mexico, Germany, Austria, etc.

All this ying-yang about the backend complexities, yada, yada, is not the main obstacle when checking out a Linux based Apache mounted hosting service. Only occasionally did I run into a situation where I had to rewrite some key functions because the latest PHP upgrade on a hosting server had improvements in connections & more robust & expanded functions.

The majority of WordPress installations run on PHP & MySQL for the reason that it is globally available. asp.net is the tech that could not match PHP in ease of use and to me, performance.

BUT the BIG issue is the NODE.JS hosting.
Quite apparently, with all of the apps being developed requiring Node servers, hosting companies apparently think that NODE is such a complex beast that they must charge for it like a gourmet dish at an upscale Parisian restaurant.

Google for Node hosting, especially for node hosting that can be run on less expensive Shared Hosting, and it seems to be an impossiblity to offer the same wide range of possibilities available to the PHP & MySQL environment.

Why in the HECK is such a popular tool in the “stack” of app development as Node service so universally RARE & EXPENSIVE? THAT is my #1 Beef with switching to Node!

I have googled extensively year after year for node hosting and it is only THIS year that I begin to find hosting that is finally geared for developers to experiment with and learn from.

For me, if I’m to use Wappler for learning Node app development, it is essential to match my local node server on my Mac with a REMOTE host. With PHP it was sooo easy. Shared hosting at a better PHP hosting service was quite sufficient for the majority of small business sites and easy to play with immediately. That way if I found the techies had done something that required a different htaccess or .ini file setting it was accomplished within the hour.

So, blah, blah – In a few cases I’ve uploaded to managed PHP & database servers for performance & the client paid for the upgrade. I realize developers here working for commercial clients don’t worry about the shared vs more expensive managed server plans.

So, after all this – please tell us, what are the Top 10 Node hosting with NoSQL or MySQL(node access to mysql is a doable thing) Hosting companies?

Thank you for bringing me up to speed on this essential issue.

[Mr.Rubi]

@JonL

DO droplet

And this is a problem that is little talked about. For some reason, it is believed that cloud solutions are a panacea for everyone. And this is not so. There are a lot of reasons, from constructive to psychological, for which many people can not or do not want to connect to cloud providers. A solution is needed where any Wappler project (in particular nodejs) can be placed anywhere the developer wants. And it should be simple. Also just like PHP.

If a developer has been working with their local hosting for more than 10 years and has an excellent relationship with it, and is completely satisfied with the quality of services, they should be able to place their new project on new technologies quickly and easily with this hosting. If the developer’s client requires you to place a new project in a specific location, it should be possible to do it simply.

I have already raised this issue in the topic about CapRover. That integrating CapRover into Wappler would solve the hosting issue once and for all for all developers at once. Perhaps there are other, better solutions. But until there is a simple and most importantly universal solution for hosting a nodejs project anywhere, a mass transition to it will be impossible.

To sum up, we need a universal, simple and cheap way to place nodejs projects anywhere. Then new projects on nodejs will appear like mushrooms after the rain.

@datguru

Also wondering if there is an opportunity here for a shared node hosting to bring about a new era of shared hosting :).

A possible solution is CapRover with integration into Wappler. Then you could have your own hosting of any projects anywhere.

[NewMedia]

@Mr.Rubi

To sum up, we need a universal, simple and cheap way to place nodejs projects anywhere. Then new projects on nodejs will appear like mushrooms after the rain.

Exactly!

It is NOT finding a universal (supported by the MAJORITY of webhosting companies) STANDARD that matches the cost and ubiquity of PHP that keeps me developing in php & mysql.

[JonL]

Let’s start by setting some references.

What would you guys consider expensive hosting? In monthly terms.

And how many webs would you host there? What kind of traffic is expected?

[JonL]

@Mr.Rubi

If a developer has been working with their local hosting for more than 10 years and has an excellent relationship with it, and is completely satisfied with the quality of services, they should be able to place their new project on new technologies quickly and easily with this hosting. If the developer’s client requires you to place a new project in a specific location, it should be possible to do it simply.

That is a problem of the provider, not of nodejs. If they continue without supporting newer tech they will go out of business soon enough. Someone will come and eat their piece of the pie. Then you will have to look for another and suddenly those 10 years mean nothing.

Additionally, that provider would have to support docker for caprover to work. Which is is more daunting for some providers than just activating the node switch in cpanel.

[JonL]

Oracle Cloud: 0€/month
1vCPU
1GB RAM
50Gb SSD

Scaleway: 1,75€/Month
1vCPU
1GB RAM
10GB SSD

Hertzner: 3€/Month
1 vCPU
2GB RAM
20GB SSD

Contabo: 5€/Month
4 vCPU
8 GB RAM
200GB SSD

You have access to node, docker and of course caprover.

If these options are expensive I really don’t know what you are expecting

[ben]

@Mr.Rubi

If a developer has been working with their local hosting for more than 10 years and has an excellent relationship with it, and is completely satisfied with the quality of services, they should be able to place their new project on new technologies quickly and easily with this hosting. If the developer’s client requires you to place a new project in a specific location, it should be possible to do it simply.

I also have a great relationship with my host who has supplied me with a reseller account. This is where I host all of my projects whether it is PHP or NodeJS

All it needs is a friendly chat accompanied by a Cognac and a cigar

[JonL]

Sorry forgot to add one hosting option.

Your average shared host: X €/month
0.01 vCPU
256MB RAM(if you are lucky)
XXGB of old HDD about to fail

[Mr.Rubi]

@JonL

What would you guys consider expensive hosting? In monthly terms.

And how many webs would you host there? What kind of traffic is expected?

With the price, everything is simple. This should be equivalent to the current PHP virtual hosting price. Depending on the country of location, prices will vary, but I think the cost will always be in the range of 3-8 US dollars for 20-30 sites.

The load is not taken into account now. The reason is simple. If the project has a load, then there will be a budget. In this case, you can rent a separate server specifically for this project.

@JonL

That is a problem of the provider, not of nodejs. If they continue without supporting newer tech they will go out of business soon enough. Someone will come and eat their piece of the pie. Then you will have to look for another and suddenly those 10 years mean nothing.

This is rhetoric. It doesn’t matter whose problem it is. This is a problem that developers are not actively switching to nodejs. If a farmer on the outskirts does not have electricity within a radius of 500 km, there is no point in discussing how much electric transport is more advanced, environmentally friendly and promising. It will burn kerosene!

@JonL

Additionally, that provider would have to support docker for caprover to work. Which is is more daunting for some providers than just activating the node switch in cpanel.

If CapRover is integrated with Wappler, then everyone will simply switch to VDS/VPS from the same providers that they are currently served by and will be able to host any number of nodejs sites, even at a better price than on PHP virtual hosting.

@JonL

You have access to node, docker and of course caprover.

If these options are expensive I really don’t know what you are expecting

Not the price is the key point (although it is important). I emphasize that you need a universal way to host nodejs sites anywhere. Without linking to a specific location or provider. Developers should be able to migrate anywhere at any time. And it’s easy, fast, and cheap to do.