Release Wappler open source (frameworks and builder)

The nerve I have, haven’t I? But hear me out.

No-code and low-code builders and AI are both tools that aim to simplify and democratize the software development process. However, they achieve this goal in different ways and can complement each other.

These platforms enable people with little to no programming experience to build software applications through intuitive, visual interfaces and pre-built components. They democratize software development by removing the need for a deep understanding of programming languages. This opens up the field to a wider range of people and allows for rapid prototyping and development.

AI, on the other hand, can automate and enhance various aspects of the software development process. For example, AI can help with code completion, bug detection, and testing. In the context of nocode and low code, AI could potentially help guide users through the development process, suggest optimal workflows or components based on the user’s needs, or even automatically generate parts of the application based on the user’s requirements.

The impact of AI on no-code builders could be significant. On one hand, AI could make these tools even more user-friendly and powerful, further lowering the barriers to software development. On the other hand, advanced enough AI could potentially render some simpler use cases obsolete by automating them entirely.

Open sourcing Wappler could help mitigate the impact of AI in a few ways. Firstly, it would allow a larger community of developers to contribute to and improve these platforms, potentially keeping Wappler relevant and competitive as AI advances. It could also lead to more innovation and diversity in the low code space, as different developers or organizations could adapt the open-source platforms to their specific needs or use cases.

Moreover, open sourcing Wappler could facilitate greater transparency and trust. As AI becomes more integral to software development, concerns about bias, fairness, and transparency in AI systems are likely to become more prominent. By open-sourcing Wappler, they can allow users to see and understand exactly how the software works, which could be a selling point in a world where AI is increasingly used in opaque ways.

Lastly, open source platforms tend to foster a community around them, which can lead to the creation of a vast array of plugins, extensions, and integrations. These could provide ways for Wappler to interact with AI tools or services, further augmenting its capabilities and allowing it to keep pace with AI-driven development tools.

The impact of AI on no-code/low-code platforms is likely to be significant, but open-sourcing Wappler could help mitigate this impact and even present new opportunities.

Of course, Wappler as a company should still be able to pay the bills. So they should ensure the best way to accomplish this.

BTW, Noodl app are already on their way:

Doomsday spoiler

The Great Filter is a concept that originates from the Fermi Paradox, which asks: “If there are a multitude of technologically advanced civilizations in the galaxy, then why haven’t we detected any signs of them?”

The Great Filter theory posits that at some point from pre-life to a Type III civilization (a civilization that can harness the energy of an entire galaxy), there’s a wall or filter that prevents civilizations from progressing further. This could be due to various reasons such as self-destruction (like pushing a catastrophic button, such as nuclear warfare or ecological disaster), a natural disaster, etc.

If the Great Filter is ahead of us, it means that we have yet to face this major challenge that may wipe out our civilization. If it’s behind us, we are among the lucky ones to have already surpassed it, which might explain why we haven’t had contact with other intelligent life – they’re extinct or haven’t reached our level of progress yet.

Will it be AI that filters us out?

Hi John, chatgpt in this video from yearly december https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi-5_eid7VA opened my eyes about its capabilities regarding the future of programming and it was the 3.5 version, I only suppose what can do the last upgraded version. Another user used chatgpt to de-obfuscate a js script, another one solved a maze using the states machines with zero errors using the same chatgpt.
I’m afraid the programmers are the first victims of ai followed by artists who will be replaced by generative models. Follow George Georganov on his twitter https://twitter.com/ggerganov for info about his projects llama.cpp and whisper.cpp, used in various llm projects that runs on users machines. The last news: a Macbook Pro m2 with 12 CPU cores and 38 GPU cores and 96 GB RAM is able to return 40+ tokens per second on a 7 billion parameters model and 7 tokens on a 30 billion parameters model. A comparison of what model is more advanced see https://lmsys.org/blog/
So, the impact of the ai will be huge.

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So much talk to then end with this :rofl:

If I were Teodor, I would ask you to explain of a way to accomplish this, and then berate open-source money only works then the project is big, bigger than Bubble.

Open-source Wappler so OpenAI can get more money, that’s what you’re asking :skull:

I think the only purpose of this FR is to stir discussion :skull:
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Spoiler

I’m just joking, don’t take this post too seriously :wink:

What’s the alternative? Total irrelevance as closed source software that doesn’t provide any added value over AI?

They had some good stuff going on for years and if not for AI they could have gone for a few more. We can’t dismiss the fact that today AI as a result oriented system is kind of gimmicky but we can’t ignore either the speed of iteration and that it’s a matter of months until AI makes tools like Wappler irrelevant. If they can’t see that already…

So what can they do to stay relevant? Open-source it and try to keep ahead of AI as much time as possible even if that is going to be complicated.

Or keep it closed, ignore AI, and close shop in 2/3 years?

That would make you plain wrong as I have been discussing privately with the team about open sourcing the frameworks (AC and SC) a few times already. Talking about possible licenses and other stuff. They already had the idea of open sourcing them well before this post.

This post just makes the ask public for the community to vote and discuss of course. It also adds the desktop app because let’s face it: AI is going to make it irrelevant.

Going open source and managing to bring in some additional intelligent people might give it a chance as software for a few more years. The chance to continue thriving as a business though is their responsibility.

Open-sourcing the frameworks is very different from open-sourcing the desktop app, and I completely believe they would open-source the frameworks. What I don’t believe is they would open-source the desktop app, hence the comments in my initial post.

If I’m wrong, perfect! :wink:

Why wouldn’t they?

They could look into dual-licensing the desktop app or using something like BSL.

Keep it free for educational/open source projects or for businesses that don’t pass certain threshold of revenue. Develop commercial extensions(After all it’s in their DNA). Test a BaaS solution based on SC. There are dozen ways to monetize open source. But it would be their responsibility to look for the way it works for them.

What I can clearly see is that there is no bright future ahead for Wappler without changing the model. A main competitor already figured this out and they already got a PR heads start just by announcing it first.

A few years ago with the boom of no-code people were searching on the internet how to build apps without code to start their own business idea. Now they are searching how to build an app with ChatGPT. How long until Wappler’s growth stalls because people are not searching for nocode/lowcode anymore?

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I’d much prefer that the team go out and raise enough money to scale the company in all areas (engineering, support, documentation, strategic management (e.g. partnerships) . Testing, etc… from the ‘right’ strategic investors and allow the concept and effort to date to really blossom and grow something of real value.

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Open source attracts investors of the good type! And if you do it well you can scale all those areas you mentioned. And if you do it extremely well you can do a lot of money.

Also, what would Wappler be without open source? It’s all built on top of open source.

I think it would be a good way to give back.

They truly don’t have much to lose because the user base is going to stall and eventually fall due to AI.

I’m not sensitive to whether it’s open source or not frankly. A lot of investors wouldn’t care too much either (some would). It’s the overwhelming need to scale up and scale out that needs to happen. Lots of great companies died too young. Think about Philippe Kahn’s Borland. Their Delphi tool was years ahead of MSFT. as was their C++ builder.

So they went out and headhunted the guy behind it from Borland, Anders Hejlsberg, showed him the champagne lifestyle, and that was the start of the end. C# and .net were his efforts. He finally had the resources that he was starved of at Borland.

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in addition to this topic, what is the founder’s long term plan for wappler?

Let’s say the company goes down or becomes unsustainable, what will be the founder’s next move? We know that we are not being locked in since we can have the code, however, we want to know the company’s future plans to avoid that worst case scenarios.

Controversial.

I don’t know if open source is the answer, however I do 100% agree with the thread.

I always felt like Wappler gave me the power of 5 ‘conventional’ developers who are not using low code.
As our project grew, we’ve overstepped the boundary of where Wappler is saving us time, into doing it using conventional code many times. For example: creating server connect extensions to workaround Wappler’s Stripe integration constraints.
Using different client side js libraries because the built-in components are not up to date or lacking UI options.
Creating many custom SQL queries because the built-in editor is JUST missing something.

And now, for overstepping those boundaries we’re using AI more and more to generate it quickly. In the past I’d be spending 3 hours writing my custom SQL query (because I’ve never learned it properly thanks to Wappler’s SQL builder). But now I can have a 5 minute conversation with Chatgpt to get the query I want.

Same goes for writing server connect extensions… it doesn’t know how to use .hjson, so there have been many times I wish I’d be working with something like React, so Chatgpt can help me more.

So, I feel like the threat of AI to Wappler is very real and is already slowly pulling me away from Wappler. Which is a feeling I absolutely hate, because we owe Wappler our entire business and I have nothing but love for the application and team.

I guess open sourcing would work with the proper contribution, and with a proper way for the team to not lose revenue. But I don’t have much experience contributing / working with open sourced projects, so I’m saying this on the assumption that the application in general will be able to develop much faster.

It would be great if individuals could improve all these tools (like the db manager) that I feel are 90% there, but still need a 10% push to be as good as it can be.

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Me neither really, but I feel that only human collective intelligence will be able to put up a fight against AI.

And that Karh, is exactly my/our position. Due to a lack of robust components or partnerships, we’ve built a suite of components based on 3rd party tooling like surveyjs, bryntum, AWS lambdas, tabulator and also built our own robust stripe integrations. Wappler was the tool that started all of this and literally created a £multi-million international business. We love Wappler but have outpaced its capabilities. It’s been obvious for some time that serious money and an experienced exec team is required. Long ago I stopped sharing my opinions as they weren’t welcome. I’m glad to see others are seeing things my way to some extent finally

I’m sure you don’t really believe that.
There is no “human collective intelligence” going to replace the exponentially expanding coding, programming prowess of the daily output of new, smarter, more comprehensive AI models.

Ideally a future web development suite is instantly able to listen to your project goals, ask questions, set up the UI to your specs, highlighting or rearranging the Wappler UI to prioritize just the tools needed for the task. Building the project files then working with your feedback to further refine your app capabilities.

Even just as importantly, pointing out or suggesting with Demos, some extra possibilities, server & device side components configured to give your app more sophistication or improved performance. When it comes to debugging AI already heads bugs off at the pass, able to simulate many different load conditions simultaneously and then offering fixes for any issues discovered at that point.

AI could also describe the components, packages, dependencies you need to install on your server and then optimize your server environment online. This little description will sound quite modest and cautious in another year as AI continues exploding.

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It seems you are describing AGI, not AI. We are not near that yet.

Humans are still smarter than AI, collectively even more.

Already the term AGI, Advanced General Intelligence, versus AI, is becoming more muddled as AI models themselves are accomplishing what the goals of AGI had been presumed to be a year ago.

What I am describing is absolutely on the near horizon for the whole field of Artifical Intelligence. AI models have already been programmed to interact with all components of operating systems and there is a whole thrust of development to incorporate AI into the Design process of software programs providing new interfaces that don’t exist, in general, to make the program UI fluid, dynamic, beyond merely dragging split views, or choosing what you want to see or hide in the UI options panel.

What I described for a Wappleresque program is totally within the scope of quite a few different major AI projects. It will take probably until the end of the year to see the first adaptations that can perform the way I described. Not only that, but the AI trained model installed on a computer can be taught, can learn your environment preferences and even road map the steps you will need to accomplish best practice coding. Or ask if you want it to run those steps itself.

But, the main point is that AI projects I have been following daily are demonstrating that for most of our programming and coding projects that the speculative goals for AGI will definitely not be required. Plus, Nvidia & other chip makers are pimping up their chipsets to empower AI models to go far beyond their present limitations when run on domestic home computers.

Just look at what Windows is doing with Nvidia.

Sorry @JonL but we don’t thinking open sourcing Wappler will bring any advantage to the product or its community.

Our vision is to bring the best tool for the right job and keep on improving it as our users demand to suit their work and improve their productivity.

Our users trust us to do so, so they don’t have to build such tools by them self, but just profit from the Wappler’s great powers and time saving.

And our The Wappler's philosophy is still fully in place.

Other companies open source their products just to have them as a “free plan” in disguise, so users can try the products fully on they own without any support obligations as well, so it is a bit like the wild west. Or they offer free plans and semi open source just for additional marketing and vendor lock-in (like Oracle, Microsoft, Adobe). Free plans aren’t feasible any more and are already on the way our as you can see from https://blog.railway.app/p/introducing-trial-hobby-pro-plans - there is no such thing as free lunch :slight_smile:

We do not want to offer limited tools and free plans, we just want to give the best for very reasonable price, all community driven. Our strongest part is our community and we just build Wappler to meet the community wishes.

For people who want contribute to Wappler, we already have great extensibility in place, so custom components and workflows can be easily build and contributed to the community.

So I think we are still on the right track :slight_smile:

PS. we do have our own AI plans already in advanced progress :slight_smile:

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I respect that vision. I think you might be thinking short-term though. There will be a generational change on your user base sooner rather than later.

And that actually scares me. 70% of your user base is happy building simple websites as a hobby or for small businesses. Only a handful of people are building apps that provide huge amounts of value. A search on websites using appConnect.js tells the story.

I am assuming the first ones come from the dreamweaver pack and these are retired or planning on retiring.

The second group eventually outgrows Wappler and will leave or will stay complaining until they leave.

What will happen when the DW pack retires and people that build simple websites find out that AI can do that for free for them in less time.

What happens when the only people(new gen) that could potentially subscribe to Wappler in a few years time find out that the software has been catering so much to old tech to satisfy the soon to be retired user base that it’s even missing switch-elseif and that AI will take them 60% of the way anyway.

Wappler will have a hard time surviving AI if you try to compete with it. AI and Wappler user base is exactly the same -> People that don’t know how to code!

AI will delete you in a few years time if you continue catering to the same audience.

You need to start catering to developers, and the best way for that is to open source. Open source the stuff, do some outreach, grow the OS community around them. Hopefully the project is interesting enough and smart developers help you grow this thing.

Well this FR didn’t go very well anyway community wise so you have the support of it on this :joy:

Anyway, I said my piece. If it’s not clear enough I have done a horrible job at explaining my thoughts. Obviously, for me, my thoughts are enough to make me worried about the future of Wappler and mine if I depend too much on it.

TLDR; You can’t compete with AI and win because both of you are catering to the same audience: people that don’t know how to code.

There is no competition with AI, we see AI as a great way to optimize the workflow even further. So AI will be helping you even better and taking boring tasks our of your hands so you can focus even better on the bigger picture.

So let Jarvis help you :slight_smile:

I will ask Jarvis to create a switch-elseif action for me :joy:

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