OK... I'll Start Since I'm not Shy

I would personally rather that Pinegrow remain a separate entity to Wappler or Dmxzone could have just as easily stuck with Dreamweaver instead of creating Wappler. The reason Wappler started was because Dmxzone was tired of having to develop within the constraints of Dreamweaver so if they joined forces with Pinegrow we would be back to where we began. I will rather help Wappler in every possibly way to become better than Pinegrow. This community gives us a direct line to the creators and means that we as users can dictate exactly how this application turns out in the end.

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I know what you mean but I’m not suggesting Wappler works with Pinegrow and the two remain separate like DMXZone is with Dreamweaver, I would love the two products to become one. Then you would have all the features and not be relying on the other product you have no control over.

I agree 100% with @sitestreet. I do my designs in PineGrow (even use it to convert my old legacy PHP sites done in Dreamweaver), then open in Wappler to add server connections, dB functions, and page interactions. Works slick.

To experiment further, I worked backward… importing the code where I wanted my forms to display on certain webpages to save formatting time. Surprisingly, it worked, retaining their formatting, but not any functionality. So now I have to figure out how to add the functionality (email, insert, edit/delete, etc.) and learn which is the quicker process: import & convert from the old or use Wappler to create the form new and then use Pinegrow to fine tune the formatting to my particular design specs (I am primarily a web designer and NOT a web programmer).

I also like @psweb’s challenge to take a PineGrow design and work on it to achieve the ultimate design/functionality goal. How & where would I send or share my PineGrow dev/test site so we all could tear at it to develop a best-practice process?

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@randyrie could you please explain what kind of formatting (for your forms) do you miss in Wappler? These are bootstrap 4 forms and Wappler includes whatever bootstrap 4 framework offers as styling.
Not to mention you could style whatever is required using the CSS panel.

Have the Wappler team downloaded and worked with Pinegrow at all? I would strongly urge you to try it out. I’m flitting back and forth between the two programs and the difference in how they help you design the page is immense.

Well, I’ve tested it a while back but found the UI very overwhelmed and not intuitive for me - all elements appear all over the screen no matter what your selection is.
Still I don’t get what part of form styling is missing as we have included every possible styling option the bootstrap 4 framework offers.

You only say this because you want wappler to be like the tool you used to work with. Which it understandable.

But from my testing with wappler, you can do anything you want and nothing is custom to it. Its all css something you must understand to use properly.
For example if wappler doesn’t give you a color picker with enough verity you should easly past any color code you found on the web.

It’s a lot more than just form styling. My perfect world would see Wappler and Pinegrow joining forces to create a killer product. Or somehow let Wappler allow a third-party application to handle the design (can’t really see this as being possible but in a dream world…) so you can benefit from both programs.

Some lovely examples are being able to view the page in multiple windows, each at different widths, plus the code, all completely synced so a change in any of those views updates all the other views. Plus you can select a element (say a

tag) and then edit just that element. You can set the number of bootstrap columns visually by just dragging, etc. There are loads and loads of examples I could give so it would be easier if you just downloaded the trial and gave it a go. It’s updated not quite as often as Wappler but still very frequently so it’s likely to be a lot different to when you tried it before.

Still this doesn’t really answer my question - what styling options are currently missing (mentioned in a previous post) so that we can improve this?
The examples you provide are just explaining the different workflow in another product, which you are used to.

We already have a color picker in the CSS Designer panel …

Also I’m not sure if @sitestreet is comparing Wappler and Pinegrow actually well - because his sites are in Bootstrap 3 which we do not support in Wappler so nothing renders in the App Structure. So there is nothing to see.

In Wappler we are all to Bootstrap 4 - so make sure you are using Bootstrap 4 to see all the Wappler power - its good for comparisons :slight_smile:

I am about to rebuild a site in BS4 and will see how it goes.

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Ha, Ha I know! Still , once again, I vote for implementing Zurb Foundation Framework!! Or at least the cool snippet function DW has with shortcuts so I can create my own Foundation library snippets. However cool BS4 may be, there are a lot of ZF users feeling left out. (And … that is another plus for Pinegrow :slight_smile:)

This is also coming in the future @oscreative.
We are currently focused on the top-priority features requests :slight_smile:

I know :slight_smile: Just want to keep that fire burning so now and then. Keep up the really good work you do!

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I’m new here, so hello all. My dog says I’m the village idiot, but ignore him. Reading this thread, this scenario that you mention is interesting and I wanted to comment on it.

I’ve been building websites since 1996. I’ve used all kind of tools such as Dreamweaver, HomeSite, Flash, PHP-Nuke, Joomla, PostNuke, phpBB, Coppermine Photo Gallery, Wordpress, Webflow, Macaw, Pinegrow, Artisteer, Beaver Builder, and even something called Yahoo! Sitebuilder. Then you had to learn PHP and frameworks such as Laravel. Finally, Dreamweaver was headed in the right direction until Adobe seemed to lose direction on what they are doing. And now we have sites like Squarespace, Wix, and Shopify where some clients are trying to cut the developer out. Even Wordpress is stripping away a large part of creative freedom with Gutenberg, and I don’t think that is a good thing.

The point is that over all this time, I have had to use many, many tools to just simply do my job. It seems, looking back, that half of my time was spent learning stuff, and the other half was doing actual work. (Who has time for sales?) I cannot tell you how much time I have spent looking for a solution that just works and does what I need it to do. Without tons of plugins, obscure pricing models, additional licensing requirements, and definitely not the security nightmare that Wordpress is. And if I had to update a site I built 15 years ago? I’d either have to do it again from scratch or just write code. There is no compatibility with things available today.

All of these plug-ins, extensions, and frameworks just add unnecessary complexity. Imagine having to attach twenty extensions to a drill just to tighten a screw. And what if you had to remove that screw in three years? You might not remember every extension you had to use. And if you do - they may no longer be compatible. That’d be maddening, wouldn’t it?

That last part is critical to remember. Plugins, extensions, and software get updated and sometimes it isn’t backwards compatible. And by using two pieces of software, plus whatever frameworks they have built in, you really are just planning for the near future. Think of the long haul.

Looking at Wappler, I cannot fathom a scenario that it won’t work. And if a scenario is happened upon, it seems that simple code will complete the task. Do yourself a favor and really learn the program and what it can do. It may be that some things are initially more involved than you are used to, but overall, your time is going to be better spent on a single platform. And Wappler is smartly targeted to a desperately needed niche in web design & development. There may be a learning curve, but trust me, it will be far better in the long run.

Lastly, we should also be careful of wishing for additional front-end frameworks. This too increases complexity. Webflow did things right by not relying on tons of frameworks. It puts complete power in the hands of the developer - and it is a quick tool to use. I would like to see Wappler be less dependent on third-party items and stronger at its core. That’ll make it easier for them to update, and a smarter investment for us in the longterm.

Anyway, sorry so lengthy. Just some thoughts.

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This is why Wappler depends for all its powerful stuff on its own App Connect framework for front-end data rendering and on its own Server Connect for all the Server Side stuff. :slight_smile:

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That is one of the things that has made me so excited about Wappler. Consider me a sales guy that you don’t have to pay. It has taken over 20 years, but finally there is a program I can really get behind. I’d buy your whole team beer if you were in North Carolina. :slight_smile:

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Thank you Chad! We know we have a great product but still we can indeed use any type of promotion to spread the word out so more people can discover the Wappler’s power and enjoy it!

And we don’t have indeed the big pockets of Adobe’s marketing budgets - but we do have a winning product :slight_smile: and word of mouth is the best advertising you can get!

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I don’t think people are understanding me correctly. Wappler is an awesome product, that’s why I backed it very early in its Indiegogo campaign and I’m now starting to really get into it. But I still feel that the design side is lacking compared to Pinegrow.

I recognise just about every application/framework you listed as I’ve used pretty much all of them over the last 25 years - great list, I’d completely forgotten about some of them like PHP-Nuke - and had used Dreamweaver since v2 back when it was Macromedia and was ASP only. Then someone created the PHP extension (can’t remember his name but it became part of DW core) and then Interakt went strong and, sadly, got bought out by Adobe and then put out to grass.

I have every hope that Wappler will become my tool for development but would love to see the visual building side improve significantly. As of now, I’m still using Pinegrow to design the page and then take the files into Wappler to continue from there.

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