@brad no any other server model allows you to get up and running with a project, a server and preview your page in your browser in 45 seconds 
Not sure which part of this do you call hard, but installing MAMP/WAMP etc. servers and setting them up locally is more time consuming and complicated than running Node locally
Timeline 1
I do have a couple sandbox sites set up on Docker. One Node and one PHP.
Really stuck on local databases and publishing. I would imagine it’s easy if you know all this stuff. But it’s not easy for starters. Especially if you have been using a system like MAMP for twenty years. 
I was referring to your statement:
And as you can see it is not really difficult to create a node project locally and run your site using the built in Node server You don’t really need Docker to run Node locally.
With Wappler I do not think programming language is such an issue anymore, I have never developed an ASP project in my life and I just did a fairly large one in Wappler the other day, just chose that server model and off I went, was just like working in php or nodejs for me.
Was quite blown away with it actually.
I agreee with parts of what JonL said, Nodejs is utterly amazing in many other ways, and I have found life far simpler by using it, just because of this type of stuff, which saves me loads of time '<%=_('$_PARAM.pageida',locals)%>', however I like the continued support for php and asp as well because sometimes we do not get a choice in what hosting environment we are forced to work within.
I do some governmental stuff and it has to all run on their own server, and they use microsoft tech throughout, therefore is ASPx and MS SQL Server or nothing.
Considering I do not know a line of ASP in my own head, I rely heavily on Wappler.
EDIT: Docker on the other hand and volumes can be a total pain, really no filemanager for docker volumes, I could cry in the CLI
Yeah. I completely understand.
I mean PHP/ASP support shouldn’t be dropped overnight. But I think a time should come when Wappler team says that no new features will be added to them and only security updates will be issued.
To finally sunset completely the support. Just like any other software piece. Of course, being able to keep using the server model after that without support would be a plus. Something like legacy models. You can use them but without support.
Apart from not knowing NodeJS and the relative difficulty of hosting options, another reason I’ve hesitated to get started with NodeJS is that it seems the vast majority of issues with Wappler which crop up here relate to NodeJS rather than PHP.
I think this is inevitable given the integration of NodeJS is so new to Wappler, but perhaps it’s not so much of an issue now.
Another concern I have, related to hosting generally, is stability and robustness. For my customers, reliability is by a long away the most important thing (this is in relation to applications I develop generally, not specifically websites). I have no doubt that software developed with NodeJS can be just as robust as PHP, but perhaps as developers and others involved may be relatively less experienced with NodeJS, this may not always be the case. Eg there have been a number of threads about NodeJS having to be restarted - again, no doubt an issue which would disappear with experience. Comments like the one below I find alarming. When George says ‘only’, it could ‘only’ be a matter of costing a customer thousands of pounds and/or losing hundreds of hours of work.
I’m sure these fears are essentially based on ignorance. Before long I hope to become less fearful as I gain more knowledge, but I hope PHP will remain in Wappler for a long time.
Docker, rkt, mesos, etc= How you package and run your apps on top of some hardware.
Nodejs, php, asp, go, rust, c++ = Programming languages.
Both are completely independent.
You mention nodejs stability but your concern comes from a docker deployment and specifically how Wappler implements it.
Again. Nothing to do one and other. This is important because there seems to be this misconception that docker and node go together.
Well I’d be really hacked off if after just completing my app which is a product for the next 10 years then half of my development world no longer had support.
@JonL I appreciate your blue sky thinking, but some of us need to be sure we are dealing with a business which has its feet on the ground, as I am sure the Wappler team does!
Thanks for your comments @JonL
Yes, but this is one of the issues. You could say the same about a server running Apache and PHP. They are ‘completely independent’ following your example, but they are also not completely indepedent - they are closely associated with each other and very well supported - which make them an attractive and successful combination (with MySQL too of course).
Your app won’t last 10 years in php buddy. If it explodes in popularity you will migrate. If it doesn’t you wont be in business or you can easily switch.
That is not true at all. You actually need to load an apache module to run PHP.
Tom, that’s not really a proper comparison. You don’t need docker to run NodeJS
@JonL, aside from websockets what can you do in Node.js that you can’t do in PHP in Wappler?
I’m not against Node, I’m just curious. 
Feature-wise it is about the architecture and the paradigms on which it was built.
It is not so much about being able to do something that PHP can’t and more about how it does it.
That being said there are numerous articles in the web that explain the key differences.
If I go all technical I don’t think I will help you understand.
PHP can do sockets by the way. Sockets is not exclusive to nodejs.
You don’t actually need to to load Apache to run PHP, but I think you misunderstood my point. You were pointing out that docker etc. and program languages are quite independent - and of course you’re right. I was suggesting that Apache and PHP (for example) could also be viewed as completely independent in the same way, but they also work so seamlessly together (and with MySQL), that they can also be considered more or less as a unit (which makes using and supporting them easier). Perhaps it wasn’t a very good point anyway…
I realise that. I don’t think I suggested you did, but I probably wasn’t being very clear.
Node.js is only supported for expensive hostings, at least at our provider. This is a no-go for smaller companies (projects).
How should a slow migration be possible if Wappler 4.0 had no php support? I currently don’t know what this migration would mean, but we have a cms with over 2000 server actions based on php.
You’d force Wappler user to move to Node.js just because you think Node.js it the right way to go? Glad George is not thinking like you
This is not true nowdays.
I said limited support. No new features. First with bug fixes and then only security fixes. In a period of time that makes sense. I said remove php from the 4.0 branch so people don’t select it for new projects, but users with a subscription to be able to use 3.x legacy branch where PHP is still usable.
They can easily be migrated.
Without hesitating.
Apologies. I meant to say to serve php web pages in Apache.
There is no tighter integration between php and apache and mysql than there is with any other major language.
Actually for PHP production environments you need to load a full external module so that apache can interpret it in a performant way.
While with node you just set apache in proxy mode as nodejs comes with it’s own production server.
WAMP/LAMP/MAMP is not some kind of magical software as many of you think. It just bundles some software into one installer and then changes some configuration lines to make them all work together in not so much peace and harmony.
And nobody created Apache, PHP and mysql to work together.
Docker on the other way. That is pure magic
